QRZ! Ham Radio 4/QRZ Ham Radio Callsign Database - Volume 4.iso/digests/policy/940148.txt

Internet Message Format | 1994-11-13 | 13KB

Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 04:30:15 PST
From: Ham-Policy Mailing List and Newsgroup <[e-mail]>
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Subject: Ham-Policy Digest V94 #148
To: Ham-Policy


Ham-Policy Digest           Thu, 24 Mar 94       Volume 94 : Issue  148

Today's Topics:
                                (none)
          Citizen Whiners & the downfall of American Empire
                         Citizen Whiners, etc
                 Morse Whiners and Citizens (2 msgs)

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We trust that readers are intelligent enough to realize that all text
herein consists of personal comments and does not represent the official
policies or positions of any party.  Your mileage may vary.  So there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 94 21:40:19 GMT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (none)
To: [e-mail]

subscribe

-----
Sam Rennie                          Member                      HAM RADIO
[e-mail]              Olympia Radio Amateur Club           the
                              Philadelphia, PA  (WA3BAT)     Wireless Internet

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 09:39:40 -0500
From: yale.edu!noc.near.net!news.delphi.com![e-mail]
Subject: Citizen Whiners & the downfall of American Empire
To: [e-mail]

Rev. Michael P. Deignan <[e-mail]> writes:

>("Test? I don't wanna take no goddamn test! Give me the microphone and let
>me talk, damnit!")

That's funny...I haven't seen ANYONE here advocating such a thing.  You make
a lot of good points about bad attitudes in this country, but they have
NOTHING to do with the issue of whether or not a Morse TEST is appopriate in
the Amateur Radio Service.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 1994 22:52:09 GMT
From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!engnews2![e-mail]
Subject: Citizen Whiners, etc
To: [e-mail]

Time to recap the discussion:

Rev. Michael P. Deignan erects a straw man:

MD>("Test? I don't wanna take no goddamn test! Give me the microphone and let
MD>me talk, damnit!")

Ed Ellers calls him on it:

EE>That's funny...I haven't seen ANYONE here advocating such a thing.

The Rev replies with a non sequitur, props up the same tired old straw man,
and adds a fresh new one:

MD>You don't? No more code test, dumbed-down theory examinations, another
MD>person here indicating that the government should but no barriers to
MD>entry in obtaining a license (translated: no examinations which require
MD>effort).


a. Calling for removing the Morse code test is not the same as saying.
   "I don't wanna take no test, just let me talk!"

b. "dumbed down theory examinations": Michael, I challenge you to identify
   even one poster here who has called for that.  Several posters have found
   flaws in various proposals for increasing the level of comprehension of
   the material required to pass the the written exams, and several have
   pointed out that having no class of license which is obtainable without
   already having significant electronics knowledge would defeat the
   self-training goal of amateur radio, but I recall no one who has called
   for making the current written exams easier.

c. "another person here indicating that the government should but no
   barriers to entry in obtaining a license (translated: no examinations
   which require effort)."

   I believe here you are referring to me.  If so, this is a
   misrepresentation of my position.  I maintain the government should put
   no *arbitrary* barriers to obtaining a license.  By "arbitrary" I mean
   requirements not directly related to the purposes of the Amateur Radio
   Service.  And yes, I don't believe we should have examinations that
   require effort.  We never have, we shouldn't start now.  We have, and
   should continue to have, examinations that give evidence of competence.

   Note that the Morse exam has not required "effort", at least not for a
   long time.  Someone who has demonstrated competence in Morse by passing
   the radiotelegraph exam need not expend any effort in even taking an
   amateur code exam.  This is stronger than my previous statement that a
   competent individual need not expend any effort beyond taking the exam.

You still haven't answered my twice-repeated question about of someone with
sufficient competence from previous experience to pass the exams without
study: what extra "effort" would you require of such an individual before
granting them a license?  What benefits  would flow from such a requirement?

Rich


--
Rich McAllister ([e-mail])

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 14:37:20 GMT
From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!galaxy.ucr.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!wa4mei!ke4zv![e-mail]
Subject: Morse Whiners and Citizens
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Silva) writes:
>Dan,
>
>I'll make this short and final, since I'm surprised that no one has
>scolded us already for drifting.  The fact of citizenship in a
>democracy places many more requirements on us than citizenship in
>other forms of government.

It's perhaps then fortunate that we don't live under a democracy,
but instead live in a constitutional republic set up to protect
*individual* rights instead of promoting mob whims. (That we select
our representatives in a quasi-democratic vote is a side issue, it
hasn't always been thus, and that fact does not make the government
assume democratic form.)

Thomas Jefferson said that a government governs best when it
governs least. Sadly that ideal is being lost today under the
Statist mentality and bureaucracy that has grown up to smother
our Republican ideals.

Gary
--
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 18:34:38 GMT
From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!lerc.nasa.gov!news.uakron.edu!malgudi.oar.net!witch!ted![e-mail]
Subject: Morse Whiners and Citizens
To: [e-mail]


In article <[e-mail]>, Gary Coffman ([e-mail]) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Silva) writes:
>>Dan,
>>
>>I'll make this short and final, since I'm surprised that no one has
>>scolded us already for drifting.  The fact of citizenship in a
>>democracy places many more requirements on us than citizenship in
>>other forms of government.
>
>It's perhaps then fortunate that we don't live under a democracy,
>but instead live in a constitutional republic set up to protect
>*individual* rights instead of promoting mob whims. (That we select
>our representatives in a quasi-democratic vote is a side issue, it
>hasn't always been thus, and that fact does not make the government
>assume democratic form.)

OK, I'm back in the discussion for one more round.  It's true that we
are not part of a perfect (i.e. we vote on every decision) democracy,
but I don't think I've misused the term.  I think it's commonly
accepted shorthand used to mean that the citizens affect, and through
their voices and actions ultimately control, the laws and policies
enacted by the government.  It is true that the requirements for voting
were once much stricter, because it was felt that the average,
semi-educated person was not equipped to place the commonweal above his
own self interest (including the mob whims you refer to).  Today, they
have voter registration drives in mental hospitals.  This is not
an improvement.

>Thomas Jefferson said that a government governs best when it
>governs least. Sadly that ideal is being lost today under the
>Statist mentality and bureaucracy that has grown up to smother
>our Republican ideals.

And he was so very right.  Despite the great efforts of the Founders, we
have let our government(s) do what all governments naturally do: grow
and crowd out individual choices and liberties.  The only solution I
can see is to choke them off at the pocketbook.

I don't think we disagree much, if at all, on these things.  I am for
more self-imposed responsibility on the part of the citizen and *much*
less nannying by the goverment.


Mike, KK6GM

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 14:26:42 GMT
From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!emory!wa4mei!ke4zv![e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

References <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Reply-To : [e-mail] (Gary Coffman)
Subject : Re: Rich has flipped out (was: Morse Whiners)

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeffrey Herman) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Richard McAllister) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael P. Deignan) writes:
>>>I guess this is what differentiates me from other people. I was brought up
>>>to believe that one should work hard, and rewards will follow.
>>
>>Ah, that explains it.  You were apparently raised by Marxists who taught
>>you the labor theory of value, which I believe is generally discredited
>>even among liberals these days.
>
>Oh my. Do you mean to say that the work ethic our country was founded upon
>is based on Marxist theory? Really? In those countries that subscribe
>to Marx-Lenin-Maoist ideals can a diligent worker there achieve anything
>close to what a diligent worker here achieves? I guess the millions who have
>been slaughtered  this century in the name of Marxism just didn't work
>hard enough, huh Rich?

Don't confuse theory with practice. Marxist labor theory indeed says
what Rich says it says, IE all value is based on labor. Communist
practice was instead a form of Fascism based on State capitalism.
Capitalist theory treats labor as an expense to be minimized, not a
desirable end unto itself to be arbitrarily increased. The doctrine
the Rev expouses is a religious doctrine based on Calvinist belief
in earning salvation. Other mainline Christian beliefs say you can't
earn salvation through works, but instead only through grace.

The US founders saw rights as inherent entities that you're
born with. They were in the main Enlightenment humanists who didn't
hold to any particular religous dogma and tried to reason out the
basis of the social contract from first principles. They wrote the
Constitution and framed our Republican government structure in such
a way as to minimize government attempts to infringe those pre-existing
rights. Government can't grant you rights, at best they can agree not
to *infringe* your pre-existing rights. Whether access to spectrum
under the doctrine of common heritage of mankind is a right or not
is, of course, subject to debate. I tend to view it as unowned
property subject to homesteading with the government attempting to
establish the homesteading rules.

Gary

--
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 16:43:35 GMT
From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sgiblab!brunix!pstc3![e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

References <[e-mail]>, <2metpp$[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>n
Subject : Re: Citizen Whiners & the downfall of American Empire

In article <[e-mail]>,
    Ed Ellers <[e-mail]> writes:

|> That's funny...I haven't seen ANYONE here advocating such a thing.

You don't? No more code test, dumbed-down theory examinations, another
person here indicating that the government should but no barriers to
entry in obtaining a license (translated: no examinations which require
effort).


|> You make
|> a lot of good points about bad attitudes in this country, but they have
|> NOTHING to do with the issue of whether or not a Morse TEST is appopriate in
|> the Amateur Radio Service.

What makes you think that the amateur radio service is insulated from the
ills of American society? Human nature is predictable: if people in society
want something for nothing, then people involved/interested in amateur
radio are going to want something (translated: their licenses) for nothing
as well.

'It's my RIGHT, dammit!'

MD
--
-- Michael P. Deignan
-- RI Center For Political Incorrectness & Environment Ignorance
-- 'Have you hugged your chainsaw today?'

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End of Ham-Policy Digest V94 #148
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